Recipes as Items, industry balancing

Comments: 59

• 07 Oct, '20
  Jey

  This feel like complication / extra steps per machine for no benefits to gameplay. How about we fix industries constantly glitching first before we force people who spent time seting up industry to redo everything ?

• 07 Oct, '20
  Rhoon

  I'm not OK with this only for the simple fact that there is no economy to speak of yet -- it's all BOT driven instead of player driven. Once a player driven economy picks up and money starts to flow from something other than dumping limited resources (IE: Ore) into the bots, then I could see adding extra recipes which cost money.

• 07 Oct, '20
  TrickyTrixy

  Please also consider this:
  
  Either do one of the following to help management of huge factories:
  - Increase the number of links on containers (say 20 or 30)
  - Improve/change Transfer units (Either reverse the output/input or enable queuing of items)
  - Change Container Hubs so that the number of links for each joined can is kept (so if 2 containers are joined then there are 20 links still available)

• 07 Oct, '20
  Ascorbic

  I would like to see recipes bought, but only for t2 industry units. I would like those recipes to be researchable so they can be improved, maybe even resold.

• 07 Oct, '20
  Zekain

  This is a stupid idea.

• 07 Oct, '20
  Me

  what does this even suppose to mean?

• 07 Oct, '20
  Alelock

  This could add an artificial burden to players that may be crippling to their play style.

• 07 Oct, '20
  Deadmon

  Please no. Much larger factories so you never swap recipes and a lot more unnecessary grind.

• 07 Oct, '20
  Boartato

  It would be important to include the option for limited run recipes. Not necessarily for T1, but any of the higher tier recipes shouldn't be a buy once have forever situation.

• 07 Oct, '20
  Poliwopper

  This is not a change that is necessary in my opinion, but if it's going to be made, it needs to be made soon... along with other changes that are going to fundamentally change the way the game is played.

• 07 Oct, '20
  Poliwopper

  One more thought that just occurred to me... It will be difficult to implement this without breaking current factories. Those players (like myself) who have mostly measured our progress in the game by our progress constructing large and complicated factories based on existing industry functionality would see that progress wiped out, something I thought was going to be avoided if at all possible.

• 07 Oct, '20
  Dinkledash

  Also have recipes that can be discovered through exploration and R&D. Create an R&D skill specifically for crafting new recipes. When new elements are added to the game, require R&D efforts to make them available.

• 07 Oct, '20
  FireDemon

  Maybe even that you can find different recipes in the galaxy for upgraded elements? Encourages exploration again.

• 07 Oct, '20
  Cheatle

  As someone that represents an organization that has implemented a large factory, I don't support these changes. There are hundreds if not thousands of machines. It would take quite a long time and lots of money to be able to buy and slot recipes, completely breaking current industry.
  
  Suggestion:
  - Recipes are only for assemblers of non basic end products.(Ex: Basic Engine vs a Recipe for a Freight Engine)
  - Tier 2+ Industry units are more efficient or buffed, while T1 still work for all tiers

• 07 Oct, '20
  vicdor

  This is a terrible idea.
  For people who already have big industry, who spent hundred of hours to set up production line, that will break everything...
  I get the idea, you think people don't use market enough. But breaking things like that will make it unfair / impossible to play for small group (mostly for talents).
  -
  Recipes = ok / tiers 2 unit = Don't like but why not / talents = PLEASE DON'T !

• 07 Oct, '20
  WhiteZeus

  Not a fan of this when game isn't balanced/optimized. This is going to be a huge blocker for players once implemented since everyone has advanced their industry so far already. Def some good in it, but implementing progress gates after we've all progressed is going to be bad user experience imo

• 07 Oct, '20
  Andrey Gloukhoff

  All of this is just tedium for the sake of tedium. Hard no.

• 07 Oct, '20
  Quetzocoro

  This is a silly idea, unless the recipes can be researched, improved modified. Constantly buying recipes would be silly. This should apply only to T2+ or modified recipes.
  
  Suggestion:
  - Make a research industries specialization.
  - Allow creation of T2+(only) researched/modified recipes as items.
  - Specialization will include: 1) Speeding up time to research/roll/creation of t2+ modified recipes. 2) Speeding up copying time. 3) Increasing amount of uses per recipe.

• 07 Oct, '20
  kolden

  if we use a container hub it should allow all links from linked containers, so if there are 10 containers linked to a single hub it should have 100 links available to it.

• 07 Oct, '20
  Matt

  I agree, there's little gain to this and I the effort could be used to fix other areas.

• 07 Oct, '20
  Noname

  No thanks. No extra skills to industry.
  Amount on industry related talents is allready owerkill.
  Industry and manufacturing gameplay can be deeper and more interesting, but not this way.
  Please dont break allready working systems.
  It is as bad as vipes.

• 07 Oct, '20
  GodsFavoriteAnt

  Ugh, no. It is enough to design efficient industry loops and materials acquisition. We don't need to add another barrier to entry for new industrialists.

• 07 Oct, '20
  Dubble

  Recipes should be learnt through a new research tab, could make the player do certain tasks to research something. "Use scanner (potential new machine of some sort) to scan pures to see potential alloys." Or maybe even more specific scanning tasks that involve more "RP". Buying from a market bot just doesn't seem as nice and makes less sense, at least that is my opinion. I am sure others share the same one
  For the tier 2+ machines, if you are gonna add something like that, just add e.g Smelter L

• 08 Oct, '20
  NasarVyron

  While I do feel industry in it's current iteration is slightly too simplistic. Rather make recipes for every item I'd blueprints made available for machine "upgrade kits" which could be produced using the previous tier components to craft. Basically:
  - Tier 1 : Produces all basic
  - Tier 2 : Produces all uncommon, and basic with some bonus.
  - Tier 3 : etc, adding bonuses to the previous tier
  ...
  -Tier 5 : optional, maybe bonuses everything?
  
  Would flow smoothly when we eventually see tiered items

• 08 Oct, '20
  Jake Arver

  I do upvote this but feel the way it seems to be approached is wrong. No T2+ industry please but instead remove T1 elements below L from industry and create a "mobile Nanocrafter" with better performance that the one build into the pack and make it possible to place on ships so we can have basic (bring me home) repair facilities. This would also make it possible to (mostly) remove the silly scrap mechanic.

• 08 Oct, '20
  Culphy

  If this happens recipes should be learnt like a skill not brought from the bots, how do u even work that into the game we all landed to rebuild humanity but for Unknown some reason need to pay to get carting recipes to do that.... is aphilia trying to cover management costs? Lol. having to learn them makes much more sense

• 08 Oct, '20
  Andrey Gloukhoff

  I see no benefit to this in the current system in the game.
  
  Until elements are actually destroyed industry and economy will remain weird and broken with demand for elements in a constant decline with sale prices for elements frequently being below mineral cost.
  
  Element destruction needs to be addressed before industry is rebalanced.

• 08 Oct, '20
  Capt_Morgan

  This is an awful idea. Keeping factories nimble and able to switch and adapt to changing economic circumstances is a good thing, not a bad thing. All this change will do is add an extra element of artificial grind which decreases player interaction in industry and all it does is create a barrier to entry for new players trying to play with and enjoy the industry aspect of this game.

• 08 Oct, '20
  kyypakkaus

  Please do not touch current industry. That time frame were before beta. It will be as bad as wipe.
  However, adding new industry units, which have new features while preserving old ones is ok.
  That way players can "wote" ingame by using new and better indy units and old ones will fade away.
  How ever if we players don't like new indy units we will not use those and game devs can figure out why new concept is not better than old without breaking current gameplay.

• 08 Oct, '20
  1Lynkx

  The changes that would really help factorys are:
  - Better filtering, or filter blocks, like "transfer unity" that pulls 'n' different choosen itens from 'n' different container, and send to destination, not 7 of the seme item.
  - Control/logistics unitys that requests itens to machines when needed and place into boxes,
  - (you can base on Minecraft's Applied Energistics 2 bus filtering system)
  - Reduce the absurd amount of the same machines implementing better stacking and pipeline workflow.

• 08 Oct, '20
  Mal Reynolds

  This feels like a step backwards. I would rather have the ability to control industry unit recipes via Lua as I still feel that the enforced need for super-scale factories is "wrong". Scale should be a thing, but should instead simple improve output rates, efficiency, parallel production etc. A small factory, should be able to (automatedly) produce a wider range of things either via Lua, or queues, with fewer machines.

• 08 Oct, '20
  Joao Cordeiro

  Where is the downvote?

• 08 Oct, '20
  DSD

  I think recipes as items is a horrible idea. As stated earlier in the comments, this is just going to lead to bigger and more bloated factories.
  Instead:
  * Fix the industry unit bugs (server errors, never-completing transfer units)
  * Increase link limits - 10 links in/out for containers is absurd
  * Increase the Lua API surface. I'm fine if the game designers don't want us to set recipes, but allow us to read more details - what recipe is selected, how many batches/items remain, etc.

• 08 Oct, '20
  Shealladh

  Another downvote!
  This sounds like a pay to win system of loot boxes

• 09 Oct, '20
  dragonspace

  I'm not liking the recipe from market bots idea. I'd rather the items be learned, and if the recipe idea still goes forward, I'd rather see it from other players. The other items for energy limits on constructs would add to the dynamic of balancing industry. Instead of T2+ industry elements for T2+ items only, let those elements have increased efficiency on energy/time/material costs. Maybe some elements have a high energy production costs that would then only be accomplished by better industry.

• 09 Oct, '20
  Kiwi

  This is a great idea, it will mean that setting up and managing is actually hard and will become a skill rather than the current system where I can set up a thousand industry units and leave them to run all the time non stop without much effort. it will encourage the market to be used more as well to stimulate the economy.

• 10 Oct, '20
  Iracus

  Sounds dreadful. Why make the existing stuff more complex and break everyone's factories? Makes much more sense to do with new items with new ores found in new systems. Leave the current stuff as the "intro game" and then introduce more endgame stuff that requires special unique units. Introduce more efficient and cool looking atmospheric engines, new blocks, new decorative elements, teleporters, etc. Specialized industry that take talents, items, time, and resources.

• 10 Oct, '20
  Poliwopper

  Been thinking more about this, since it would break the progress I've made in DU so far. A compromise:
  - Industries work as they do currently, even for T2+ elements. Could tweak recipes (more expensive), but otherwise leave alone.
  - Sell upgraded/alternative recipes from bots on market that are more efficient. These can only run on new T2+ industry elements.
  This would avoid breaking industry, & would force people to use new elements to be competitive on market, & encourage specialization.

• 10 Oct, '20
  DecoyGoatBomb

  I would rather there be a Research Element that players could set a recipe to actively be researched and you can improve rate of research with talents. Once the research is complete it creates a consumable and tradable item. This could add another career path rather than adding more bot dependence.

• 10 Oct, '20
  ElKayro

  Another down vote from my end.
  
  Provide additional items, new recipes and new machines. That's fine.
  
  Please don't waist my endless hours I spent in Industry. I don't see anything good to buy Recipes.

• 11 Oct, '20
  paulscott

  Sounds like the devs are mad at underestimating the players again, in this case getting their industry up and running at greater scales than expected. This will just be like adding hurdles to the first 50 meters of a 500 meter race.

• 12 Oct, '20
  GallopingTortoise

  Not a good idea, don't see any benefit for this. This game does not need to be a copy of Eve and needs to have it's own identity. There could be very high tier elements that could incorporate this but yes it will still be a copy from eve.

• 13 Oct, '20
  JustTheTruth

  If they break all current industry, my question is "what's the plan for the next change?" -- because there's zero chance that they won't come back to this to tweak it again once players find the next thing NQ wants to "balance".

• 22 Oct, '20
  TimG

  Downvote - If this results in needing to insert a new, potentially single use, recipe every time I need to change what an Industry makes it will result in half my gameplay being trips to the market for the xyz recipe I just discovered I need to make whatever I'm crafting right now to use in whatever I'm building right now. As a solo player, I have a small workshop with just a few of each Industry and one of each Assembler that I constantly reconfigure to make the parts I need for my current project. If we need a separate Industry for each end item to avoid constant trips to the store then everyone will need to build a megafactory just to get started.

• 22 Oct, '20
  Fem

  I don't like this idea at all! I would rather see improvements like; distribution nodes rather than just a transfer node. maybe we could get addons we could build to speed the machines T4 and 5 mats for those or something like that.

• 22 Oct, '20
  em_kay

  I agree with the suggestion that market bots should NOT be the source of recipes, but rather a new R&D player profession should generate them.
  
  Perhaps R&D process consumes material that will be part of the input for the recipe?
  
  Perhaps T1 items don't require a recipe (maybe allow recipe for bonuses), T2 can be generated by a player with low-level R&D skill, and progressively higher tiers require more R&D skills?
  
  Perhaps new R&D skills of generating player might also provide bonuses to completion time, productivity, input materials tied to the recipe item?
  
  Note: I am an industrialist myself, with a factory setup consisting of upwards of 500 industries. While I don't want to be forced to rebuild it all, if the mechanic triggering the rebuild is interesting enough and has enough upside to make it worth it, I don't mind.

• 23 Oct, '20
  Dmitry Nesterov

  It is better to use the "Factory Profile" idea that I talked about on the forum. Those. all currently selected factory recipes and links are saved into one profile. Profiles can be switched. It would be extremely convenient not to manually reconfigure each building - you can reconfigure everything with one click in the profile list.

• 24 Oct, '20
  HaugTheGreat

  This is a silly idea. The point with any game is to make it more fun, not blocking ppl from having fun. This is just like putting a wooden log in the road with a sign "Remove the wooden log from the road before continue driving."
  
  This idea leads no way. There are so many other fun things to make the gameplay more interesting.

• 25 Oct, '20
  dasBOOT

  Bad idea, at least not until much later down the roadmap. As others have said, many more would like to see some (seemingly) simpler changes like the max link limit upped, at least on things like container hubs. The art of creating large scale industry is already extremely laborious. Breaking the current industry lines with new industry types would mean a redo of many industry lines and would not add much to the experience for new or (especially) veteran players compared to the laborious detriment it would cause all veteran players.

• 05 Nov, '20
  Helios77

  I disagree with this idea. It makes doing industry too cumbersome.

• 12 Nov, '20
  Sakata

  Not a fan. More grind to an already fairly tedious process.

• 16 Nov, '20
  Alexis

  I don't like the idea for already existing recipes. But add player custom recipes to sell and that will make things more interesting. Like a recipe for a specific ship that the player made for instance, or a building, maye player would create ready to use industry buildings and stuff. That would make things way more fun.

• 16 Nov, '20
  Stephanator

  With regard to the arguments against, stating how much effort itd be to fix your current factory setup: that's not a valid argument for a game still under development. Ship designs will need to be reworked as power systems come into play, factories will likewise have to change based on power as well. Things change. The question is, will that change make the game better? temporary pain for a better overall experience should be acceptable, otherwise you should not be participating in a beta at all.
  
  With regard to the request: this brings it in line with Eve factory systems, but Eve only did that for final products, not intermediate materials. If this is done, I agree that it should be limited to Element production, for elements that cannot be made in the Nano Assembler. I also agree with limited use recipes being scattered throughout the universe or needing research to produce. I'd like to see laboratories as structures people build, to add some flavor to the static constructs.

• 19 Nov, '20
  CrystalEmperor

  I think instead of purchasable from bots it should be more like rust, i.e something which you need to find.It could be found in relics etc and could be purchasable from other player.
  Obviously it should apply to new rarer item not items which already exist in game.
  For example recipe of a rare and expensive alien tech space engine.
  This would add exploration and intrigue to game.
  Or it could be mix of both.
  Existing recipes could be purchased in market from bots and rarer recipes should be found.
  But obviously applying this to existing recipes would mean increasing grind in game without adding much value.

• 24 Nov, '20
  Gend

  stop resticting everything you already have and call it "feature". Add new recipes that way but let them others be as they are please. Please Stop streching Grind, add more fun generating features instead. Add downvote options on this page and youll see it is not a good idea :)

• 25 Nov, '20
  Wyndle

  I am torn on this. I see both sides of the argument, but I must reserve my opinion until I see how the devs envision implementing this concept. In the long term it could be one of the best options, but as the limited description implies it appears to be a huge step back from the current system.
  
  I vote for a dev led discussion about how this could be implemented. This one is important (and controversial) enough to call for a townhall meeting where the community might have a granular input on how this might work. Together we might even hone this idea into something far better than currently considered, whatever that may be.

• 29 Nov, '20
  Maitre Na'Daoine

  Worst idea I've ever heard.
  I've heard of so many nerfs coming down the pipe-line... but the energy system, AGG, and brake nerfs were kind of expected anyway. This, however, will just kill your game.... especially if you also have the other nerfs I've mentioned.
  If you did this only for new recipes not already in the game it would be bearable, but for all of your "it will help the economy" talk the only thing this will do is destroy your player base.... and those that stick around will still be able to make everything in the game eventually, it will only take longer.

• 10 Dec, '20
  Alelock

  Terribly implemented. Game breaking for the MANY small groups who want to craft and build. Focus on expanding, not limiting.

• 10 Dec, '20
  Helios77

  Did NQ even read all of these statements? Apparently not. Most are "NO DON"T DO THIS." Yet NQ did it anyway. Player based economies are very tricky things and honestly, no one has gotten it right in any other games I can think of. My suggestions are this: 1. Scrub the last industry update and go back to the way it was. 2. Fix the marketplaces so they consistently work and the teleporters on Alioth are next to them, not 1.2km away. 3. Remove the bots from the marketplace and WAIT. Give it at least two months for players to get stuff going and start building an in-game market strategy. 4. Implement the tiered 2 tech and above, with an option of adding schematics and then let it run for at least two months to see how it goes. The point is not to create barriers to industry and trade, but create opportunities for such, and also give it time to mature. NQ is trying to smash it through in one go. I've helped design in game economies in the past. What you are doing won't work.